From Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
Discussion of The Census Taker**************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:13 PM
Subject: JCO: Shall we start on The Census Taker?
> Hi friends!
> We talked about doing With Shuddering Fall in
> September (I think it was that one--correct me if I'm
> wrong!).
> Does that mean we'd like to get through By the
> North Gate before then? If so, we could do one story
> every two days. There are fourteen stories, and we'd
> be done by Labor Day.
> Or what?
> Thanks,
> Laurie
>
> =====
> Better Edit!
> http://www.betteredit.net
> laurie@betteredit.net
>
> "Wow, it looks a lot better than it did." --MLIS student
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: Shall we start on The Census Taker?
> Hi, Laurie. I think it's Bloodsmoor Romance up for September. I'm sure those of us who are really into North Gate can stay with it until we finish all the stories. But we should try to move along through these stories with deliberate speed, so let's do Census Taker. I was struck by the landscape description of the opening scene: the dead, frozen grasses and the frozen tire tracks in the muddy road that leads up to the mysterious farmhouse were very evocative of stasis and deadendedness. There were hints of Faulkner, but I think Kafka was the guiding atnosphere: i.e, man sets out on futile task, expected to abide by a set of arbitrary rules such as no eating dinner with the folks being interveiwed, and he's sent there by a distant governmental power-- in this case the government of Oriskany, the county seat. (John Updike, in a review of You Must Remember This, suggested that the town's name can also be heard as "Oh, risk any!") The futility of the census-taker's task becomes more apparent as the story goes along: in fact, that seems to be the punchline -- or the rude-awakening epiphany of the story.
> Cyrano
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:51 PM
Subject: JCO: The Census Taker
> Hi friends!
> This is a story of chaos. Here we have a man trying
> to make reality--people--fit into a neat book. But the
> crazy girl points out that people come and go. Who are
> the *people* of Oriskany anyway? Here we have people
> who don't fit; the head of the household, who must do
> the reporting, is not home, which is a problem, even
> though the wife could tell him the facts. Seems silly.
> Some important people in the family are dead (unless
> the girl is making it up). People eat, but the census
> taker is not supposed to participate. Anyway, who is
> the fifth place at the table set for? The census is
> "very important" and then "not important." The boy points out that all you can believe is what
> you see now, as in the case of the weather. Similarly,
> he says the scene in the photographs is probably
> washed away now. I'm not sure of the significance of the girl's
> mentioning the walled-in world and wanting to sleep.
> She is skinny and pretty in an odd way--is she JCO?
> Also not sure why the man leaves suddenly. Because
> he doesn't want to complete the task, define reality?
> Is he losing his mind, or is he just reacting to what
> he finds unpleasant?
> Interesting to see the comments on the setting and
> symbolism. Also the comment about JCO's older style.
> These are lovely, polite, remind me of Henry James
> somehow, or a framed miniature. I guess the newer ones
> are more stark, in your face. Don't know if that's
> what you mean.
> Laurie
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker
> Hi, Laurie. She seems to be a type that shows up in so much of the fiction: the skinny girl. In this instance she is outspoken and seems "demented" to the census taker.
> Cyrano
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)
> Reading very carefully this time, I noted the outspoken girl's strong opinions on the futility of giving birth: "I aint going to keep on, no walled-in world, no numbers writ down in a book to stand for me," the girl said spitefully, passionately: "I aint going through the old ways -- not comning from a child to a woman, havin children to keep on with the old ways, sufferin them, sufferin all the agony to squeeze them out into the walled-in world! And sick all your life, and poor,...I aint going through the old ways! I'm going asleep. No cancer for me, I can feel it eating my body already...I mean to have a man, once, to to know that then go on out to the snow and sleep. These people of the world, why, go through the old ways like a horse pulling a plow, going through the ruts. I aint going to do that!" In this monolog, we see again the ruts that appeared at the story's opening -- the frozen ruts that the census taker must walk through on his way to the farmhouse. The girl passionately wants out of the ruts of life as she sees it lived around her, but she also appears to have no hope of ever doing that...being addled enough to confuse the census taker with her long-gone father.
> I haven't figured out why the table's set for 5. There's mother, girl, boy.... Maybe father really does work at the saw mill and will come come for dinner. If so, I still haven't a clue about the fifth plate. There are four deceased family members: the twins, the son killed in a tractor accident the previous summer, and Grandma dead of cancer. Is the table set for the missing? (5, including father, if father has, indeed abondoned the family) Any ideas, anybody.
> Cyrano
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)
> Hi Cyrano,
>
> I wonder if the fifth place at the table (perhaps set for the census taker?) is meant to show that he belongs with these unfortunate people, that he is just as trapped as they are.
>
> I may be reaching ...
>
> Kim
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)
> Hi, Kim. I thought one table setting might be for the census taker too, but that's the way the table looked as soon as he walked into the house. Unless they spotted him coming up the road and set the fifth place for him, it seems more like 5 is how they usually set the table. There must be some reason the JCO included that detail. Perhaps to make readers think -- as we certainly are thinking about it.
> Cyrano
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:34 AM
Subject: JCO: Re: The Census Taker
> It seemed to be a reaction to the unpleasant surroundings. Perhaps
> having the futility of his job pointed out to him was more than he could
> take at that point. I think he just wanted out of that house. I had the
> impression that he wasn't going to visit any more houses, job or not.
>
> Jane
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "ted"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)
> More ambiguity! I love it.
>
> These stories are so lovingly crafted, there is an attention to every detail
> it seems to me that is lacking in typical later Oates, where perhaps words
> are just cheaper? Or where other concerns have come to the forefront- It
> makes me think of the rewrite of Them- these stories would be so different
> from a current JCO.
>
> Two things, besides the crazy(?) girl, remind me of Swamps- the would-be
> census takers sees she is pretty "with an odd trip of the heart"- that
> phrase is somewhere in Swamps but I couldn't find it easily- the young boy
> is the one with the tripping heart in Swamps. This writing reminds me of
> Steinbeck, as well as Faulkner- I was always taken by the way that Steinbeck
> would "objectively" render the inner states and emotions of characters, by
> drily noting their words and actions- I never could quite see how he got me
> so emotionally invested. Faulkner on the other hand tells the story and yet
> you are liable to miss it, as it might well be missed by many of the
> characters in the story, without careful attention to the implications of
> things that don't get a lot of attention in the narrative. And yes, the
> writing has a kind of Washington Irving/Henry James/Nathaniel Hawthorne kind
> of exquisite woodcut quality to it- so masterfully crafted in the New
> England tradition.
>
> The other thing that reminds me of Swamps, is actually in Swamps- the
> Grandfather says "I spose a person got to be married to suffer right?" This
> makes me see a theme of unacknowledged, left-behind life, real life in
> contrast to official life, either the official story on the books at the
> county register, or the acceptable acknowledgeable life from the perspective
> of the good people of the county- and the Grandfather makes no pains to
> belong to this latter group, perhaps from an affinity for or a stubborn
> acknowledgement of those who slip through the cracks?
> Ted
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:03 PM
Subject: JCO: The Census Taker (spoilers if you haven't read it yet)
> Hi friends!
> I like the later stuff too. It's just different.
> Now I think the walled-in world is the oppressive
> countryside, full of ruts, surrounded by hills
> (obstacles), and without vistas. Of course the girl
> sees life that way too.
> Maybe the five places at the table are supposed to
> be a mystery. The census taker (and we) will never
> know the truth about that family--or about life?
> Thanks Randy for quick action. The previous way
> wasn't a problem for me, but I wouldn't want people to
> quit over it!
> Laurie
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Rouse"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:47 AM
Subject: RE: JCO: census taker
> Coming from my own childhood in upstate New York, in the 50's, it is
> not a mystery to me to fathom the extra table setting. As memory
> serves me, the extra place setting is for the departed family member.
> "Set a place for God" is also something I can extract from childhood
> memory. It seems so strange now to even say how this rings true for me
> but it has a comfortable place in my memory nevertheless.
>
> Patricia Rouse
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker
> Hi, Patricia. I've heard of that being done in religious orders, but I never realized it was a custom among the lay folks too. Thanks for providing info about an (unfortunately) long-lost folkway. How long after the death was the place usually set? In the Census Taker, then, there would be two extra places: one for the recently-deceased son who was killed in a farm accident; the other for either Grandmother or departed father.
> Cyrano
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: JCO: census taker
> Hi friends!
> Thanks Patricia for the lesson about the extra
> place setting. I too can remember things from the 50s
> that are no longer done or believed in; to a
> historian, that was another era.
> JCO says this story took place "some time ago"
> (even before the 50s I suppose); the man was on foot,
> and the girl alludes to horses and her walled-in
> world.
> I had heard of a custom among Muslims (but not
> Christians until now!) of setting an extra place at
> the table for absent ones. Probably this is/was a
> daily thing, because at any given time someone is dead
> or absent. No need to set multiple places.
> So in the story, perhaps the extra place is a
> reminder that the census ignores many things that are
> important to a family.
> Laurie
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker
> That would make good sense. The futility of the census -- the protagonist's task -- is the overriding mood of the story. At the end, I had the impression he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm and that he was likely to get caught in it and die.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 11:36:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, laurie@betteredit.net writes:
>
> << So in the story, perhaps the extra place is a
> reminder that the census ignores many things that are
> important to a family.
> Laurie >>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patricia Rouse"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: JCO: census taker
> Cyrano, Only one place was set, no matter how many family members had
> died. I remember asking my Christian grandmother why was the extra
> place set at the small formica topped table in their kitchen on which
> was always laid out plates and glasses overturned, butter in a covered
> dish, other condiments, in preparation for the next meal. Daily life was
> so routine for meal times and members of the family, I can imagine the
> habit of setting the table in the same way was difficult to break even
> when one family member died. It must have honored the memory of what was
> the past and also welcomed a visitor readily, serving a dual purpose.
> Patricia Rouse
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lara Fitzgerald"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker
> Yes, I had the same impression. Perhaps then, the extra setting at the table was foreshadowing his death--but that's quite a stretch!
>
> Cyranomish@aol.com wrote:
>
> >That would make good sense. The futility of the census -- the protagonist's >task -- is the overriding mood of the story. At the end, I had the impression >he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm and that he was likely to >get caught in it and die.
> >Cyrano
----- Original Message -----
From: "frank malgesini"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 3:52 PM
Subject: JCO: Census Taker
>
> I haven't read e-mail for a few weeks and I am happy
> and surprised to see the discussion dealing with one
> of my favorite Oates stories, The Census Taker.
>
> This is the first story we read in the JCO course I
> teach and one of the stories that we spend the most
> time on. I think it introduces one of the most typical
> Oates themes, the struggle to make the world
> predictable.
>
> For the Census Taker this is especially important
> because he is so afraid of the real world. It is only
> from behind his official mask as the census taker that
> he can interact at all
>
> The census taker's final action of walking out into
> the storm, like his earlier reduction of reality to
> what is in his book is an example of developing a
> technique for controlling the world. Although by the
> time he leaves he is no longer sure either of his
> system for analyzing the weather or of the census. Or
> rather he knows that the girl is right.
>
> The disturbed girl and the young boy are able to
> demolish his rationalizations like the small boy in
> another fairy tale who pointed out that the Emperor
> had no clothes
>
> The story can be seen as announcing Joyce Carol Oates'
> program. If we look at the whole body of her work, it
> is practically a census of the United States at a
> certain period of its history. But she is telling us
> that her goal of capturing reality is absurd. I think
> that the story is on one level at least about writing
> and the plight of the writer. By the time we have
> reality down it has changed. And we can never get it
> all down anyway.
>
> The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories.
>
> I wish I had By the North Gate with me here because
> this story is so full of material for conversation.
>
> Frank
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Rendon"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 4:42 PM
Subject: JCO: census taker
> Hi friends! Cyrano wrote
>
> > At the
> > end, I had the impression > he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm
> > and that he was likely to > get caught in it and die.
>
> I think so. He seems clueless about life in these
> parts. Why is he an outsider? Was the census
> contracted out to specialists? In my experience it was
> done by locals.
> The immediacy of life--the idea that you can't tell
> the weather until it happens--reminds me of a
> conversation I had with a friend in Korea. I and other
> foreigners were sometimes frustrated by the Koreans'
> lack of planning in some aspects of life. She asked me
> what was wrong with that, and said that until
> recently, "the people just lived."
> Actually, the local family seems to be more aware
> of the past, as people in many places still are today.
> The girl doesn't see any future for herself. Perhaps
> the census taker--the displaced bean
> counter--represents the rational future? Both points
> of view seem pretty dismal in this story.
> I guess we'll all know how to spell census after
> this!
> Laurie
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "KStarrett"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 7:50 PM
Subject: JCO: RE: census taker
> Cyrano wrote
> >
> > > At the
> > > end, I had the impression
> > > he was dangerously underestimating the coming storm
> > > and that he was likely to
> > > get caught in it and die.
>
>
> I have to agree. The census taker's death, it seems, is foreshadowed in the
> first line:
>
> Some time ago in Eden County, in the remote foothills
> of Oriskany, the census taker of that area -- a quiet
> sleepy man in the 38th year of his life -- came one
> day to the last of the houses he was to investigate.
> >
>
> Kim
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker
> Thanks again, Patricia. I grew up in the midwest too and I'd forgotten the habit of leaving all the butter and condiment dishes (covered, of course) out on the table between meals because all three daily meals a were usually eaten at home -- restaurants and the early fast-food joints being for special occasions only. Of course, that all changed as the sixies wore on.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 4:03:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rousep001@hawaii.rr.com writes:
>
> << Cyrano, Only one place was set, no matter how many family members had
> died. I remember asking my Christian grandmother why was the extra
> place set at the small formica topped table in their kitchen on which
> was always laid out plates and glasses overturned, butter in a covered
> dish, other condiments, in preparation for the next meal. Daily life was
> so routine for meal times and members of the family, I can imagine the
> habit of setting the table in the same way was difficult to break even
> when one family member died. It must have honored the memory of what was
> the past and also welcomed a visitor readily, serving a dual purpose.
> Patricia Rouse >>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker
> Hi, Frank. I guess the CT's decision to walk outside despite the childrens' warning indicates that he hasn't learned from his experience and will die - since, after all, this was the last interview he was to do.
> Cyrano
>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: census taker
> Hi, Laurie. So true -- the folly of overplanning. Americans are considered quite demented on this topic in other parts of the world.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:46:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laurie@betteredit.net writes:
>
> << The immediacy of life--the idea that you can't tell
> the weather until it happens--reminds me of a
> conversation I had with a friend in Korea. I and other
> foreigners were sometimes frustrated by the Koreans'
> lack of planning in some aspects of life. She asked me
> what was wrong with that, and said that until
> recently, "the people just lived."
> >>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: RE: census taker
> Hi, Kim. I love the ambiguity of that opening paragraph. (It always pays to reread a really good story and see what kind of spin the author put on it from the beginning.) It might mean it was the census taker's last interview for either of two reasons:
> A. He died in the storm
> B. After his eye-opening interview with the family, he decided to stop participating in the futile census-taking process.
>
> The first time I read the story, I thought the line "came one day to the last of the houses he was to investigate" -- meant that the farmhouse was the last house on his list of things to do THAT DAY. Yes, it definitely pays to reread...and re-reread.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 9:50:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kstarrett5@comcast.net writes:
>
> << The census taker's death, it seems, is foreshadowed in the
> first line:
> Some time ago in Eden County, in the remote foothills
> of Oriskany, the census taker of that area -- a quiet
> sleepy man in the 38th year of his life -- came one
> day to the last of the houses he was to investigate.
> >
> Kim >>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker
> Hi, again, Frank. When the census taker was talking about the difficulties of listening to so many interviewees(p.28), I thought JCO might be describing her own creative process -- some of its difficulties:
> "There's so much of it to do, so many houses, so many people, faces, that talk to you, that you must talk back to, all the while trying not to fall asleep. You'd wonder how some of us do it." the CT tells the girl.
> "Why don't you just fall asleep?" the girl -- (Rose-Ann) --asks him, and her mother shushes her.
>
> JCO has often referred to her on-going insomnia. How she stays up half the night reading and writing. Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:18:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmalgesini@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << The story can be seen as announcing Joyce Carol Oates’
> program. If we look at the whole body of her work, it
> is practically a census of the United States at a
> certain period of its history. But she is telling us
> that her goal of capturing reality is absurd. I think
> that the story is on one level at least about writing
> and the plight of the writer. By the time we have
> reality down it has changed. And we can never get it
> all down anyway.
> The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories.
> >>
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: JCO: Census Taker
> I was just teaching a class last night on Gogol's "The Overcoat." Discussion focused on how Gogol ends a realistic story about bureaucratic life in early 19th-century St. Petersburgh with a "ghost story" that seems tacked-on. The class thought the ghost story might be an indicator of feelings among the characters in Gogol's story -- feelings which can't be expressed in a realistic manner. It's a very delicate effect to pull off in a story, and I like the way JCO so often does it.
> Cyrano
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2004 6:18:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmalgesini@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << The fairy tale opening places The Census Taker like
> many of her early stories on an allegorical plane. It
> is interesting that, though Oates was once seen as a
> realistic writer, so many of her early stories are
> obviously fairy tales or allegories >>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Charter"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: JCO: Re: Census Taker
Wow! This is the first post that has caused me to want to actually pick something up and read it!
----- Original Message -----
From: frank malgesini
To: jco@usfca.edu
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 5:52 PM
Subject: JCO: Census Taker
I havent read e-mail for a few weeks and I am happy
and surprised to see the discussion dealing with one
of my favorite Oates stories, The Census Taker.
This is the first story we read in the JCO course I
teach and one of the stories that we spend the most
time on. I think it introduces one of the most typical
Oates themes, the struggle to make the world
predictable.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tone Clusters: The Joyce Carol Oates discussion group
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Jane, I wanted to write a New Post on the blog, but couldn't figure out how to go about it. There doesn't seem to be a "New Post" link anywhere. Can you help me?
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